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I’ve been an actor for more than 20 years, and analysed data for more than 30. I trained at the esteemed University of Western Sydney Nepean in physical theatre and at the University of Sydney where I studied neurophysiology. I’ve also studied a wide range of acting styles and techniques, and have skills raging through voice acting, physical and stand-up comedy and stage fighting making me a versatile actor with an eclectic career.

Sydney based I have lectured and performed around the world. For more info check out the about me page above. For examples of my work have a look through the video and photo pages. For a bio and to get in touch see my contacts page.

Books Are Magic (bookstore, Brooklyn)

225 Smith St, Brooklyn, NY 11231, United States

Not only are books magic but “Books are Magic” is magic, as are the coven curating the creative compositions there.

You can tell a lot about a person from the books and music on the shelves in their home – what’s on display and what’s been repeatedly used and lent and dog-eared for reference. But I was keenly aware that the books there are carefully considered recommendations for the benefit of the person walking through the door.

There are the big hits with substance, and they sit alongside the books of big impact with a smaller distribution. The range is impressive – rather than 90 copies of this seasons “Eat, Pray Love” they’ll have 2 copies and a dozen + titles speaking to a broad range. They have recommendation cards a plenty so you know they know the library. You can tell books are a personal love language here. As a middle-aged / Autistic / Aboriginal / Jewish / Australian I felt uncommonly welcome. I may have helped that the music was in one of the many playlists I’ve had over the years, like a sound track across the epochs of my history.

I bought two books – Katherine May’s “Enchantment” I had previously bought in virtual edition for a book club, and uncharacteristically a new manga “Love Bullet” that once I flipped a few pages, insisted to me that I take it home – like the face of a puppy staring up at me in an animal shelter.

The staff are attentive and happy to facilitate as if you are a house guest rather than a target for financial transaction.

Loved Books are Magic. Well worth a 23 hour flight.

booksaremagic.net/

Reading & writing at @Tenz (1069 1st – Sutton Pl, NYC)

My “Macaulay Culkin Christmas (in New York) pt1

The story of my Macaulay Culkin Christmas (thus far)! I’ve been updating on Insta and it’s linked meta platforms.

I’d been toying with the idea of getting out of my regular reach for the holidays, but come the Fri 19th Dec when I was putting the mountain of projects on hold, and saying goodbye to friends departing long term. I finally got to 11pm and said “enough”.

Within 48hrs, incl. one final neurodivergent bookclub, and a Christmas themed D&D game with some close friends, I’d recovered enough mental functioning to make a plan. 10 hrs prior to boarding the plane I booked my ticket out and a place to stay when I landed.

I have had an overarching need is to start repair on my brain. 2025 was the hardest year yet. Just when I’d thought that burnout had hit it’s core and I am at my last reserve I found myself in another layer, and in myself another layer of resilience. I could feel my sense of self being stripped away as I lost the more confidence, and watched my skills evaporate as if I was in the final chapters of my own personal Flowers for Algernon.  It made sense to go to my upside-down – where the weather was cold, my expected outcome was not failure, and people called me friend.

The flight out had a hicup but I’m used to that now, and what would have been a problem in the past is now a bit of business.

I landed at Newark Airport NYC and made my way to my excellent tiny hotel Pod51. The rooms are Piet Mondrian themed! I braved the chill and found a pretty jumping Pizza store on 2nd Av blaring Latin American dance music for a few partying folks. Was a good vibe.
I escaped with 2 slices bigger than my head(!), got back into my room by midnight, watched local news and had pizza in bed. SUCCESS!

Since then Jordan at the pizza store will slip me an extra slice of some garlic bread when I go. Great guy.

Mondrian room

Next day I caught up with my friend Dale @ Beyond Sushi for great vegan Sushi lunch, before his expert tour of Midtown & Central Park West. 

I took myself to Macy’s to buy myself a gift, for Christmas Day then Bryant Park skating rink.  Then home to prepare to foil the sticky bandits. The gift is more pants for the cold – is up or in wearing two pairs. I freaked out a little the first time I went to the bathroom and forgot. I thought I’d turned into Ken.

After spending Christmas day wandering through Central Park, finding a diner in the Upper East side NYC and generally being a badly organised tourist (by design!) I was treated to a play Marjorie Prime (by 2nd Stage) by my friend Dale. While we were eating all the Tofu at Ollies Szechwan I happened to glance out the window and it was snowing!? I’ve never seen snow in my 39yrs (and some months*) existence so this was pretty AuDHD brain popping. We had a great conversation on the issues with AI, and a wonderful show in an incredible theatre. Adding a Christmas snowfall definitely lightened the ToDo column of the bucketlist.

*177

I’m very grateful to Dale who’s been exceptionally patient with my poor planning and touristy excitement as I repair my broken brain on this trip. Also he keeps me eating well – difficult to do solo when burnt out.

AI and ownership

I recently came across a social media post commenting on an AI picture of a group of smiling people largely women. If was quite innocuous as an image but the ire of one commenter was drawn from the usual place – AI is trained on real images without concent

A little like:

accountxyz: hope the people you all use in prompts start suing the heck out of all of you

Okay. Most images are built from AI trained on massive banks of images largely unattributed, making that some class action.

Better though (if we want to get social warrior – which I’m down for) how about some lawsuits happening on predatory media, fashion and entertainment industry bodies, organisations and individuals, that have destroyed young women’s lives and careers for profit; for that matter what about accountability by the individuals that have openly joked about their dehumanising and abuse of women. Let’s not leave men out – the hazing and humiliation of young men in those industries is also a known blight that, by silence, we are complicit.

Whilst that may be somewhat off topic, a person’s right to own their own identity, is heavily impacted by data protection and it’s regulation in the current era. Legislation tends to move at a glacial pace compared to digital technology. However, legislation has been uncaristeristically nimble, as seen in the EU data reforms, and in business with Cloudflare and others moving to take control of bot crawling. The use of AI in increasing the speed and volume of trials for combating COVID, pushed reforms to bringing pharmaceuticals to market, at a rate that was previously implausable.

On a different tactic … how about the artists that have been plagiarised – but not compensated – for models being trained on their work?

The digital era has invented some models for mass distribution & monetisation that could be used in the training up and prompting of outputs for AI. The Spotify model is probably the most familiar example. These models arose in the digital frontier, in a time where torrenting ruled, and artists control of their IP was threatened. It’s been said that this led to better control for the studios than the artists. From the Wild West of torrent downloads, more was gained technologically than was redressed ethically. Better ethical distribution of the equity is always a goal.

Philanthropically there is potential in a model where the incredible profit margins from AI start-ups and established tech giants are “encouraged” to be farmed back into art and social programs. NGOs, NFPs, Government and community led organisations are better positioned to lead the redress societal imbalance, and best avoid the conflict of interest  in distribution of that gain. It isn’t a direct compensation for artist IP, rather it’s a longer term sector and societal solution, which works more in terms of redistribution of individual wealth gained from the common wealth.

That being said, there are options other than “Ban the AI”. Artificial Intelligence is past cancel culture. What that means is we need to ask ourselves as individuals, communities and societally, what are the potential risks, what are the possible mitigations of those risks and what are the opportunities – and for whom? This is a long game.  If we move together as a society, bottom to top, shoulder to shoulder, the better our future becomes. The biggest opportunity is for building our ethics into our solutions.  And now is precisely that time.

Independence v Autonomy – Autistic health and welfare outcomes

This! This right here!

Ella makes the valid point on the language used when talking about autistic life goals. This common term is living “independently” – however living without dependencies is rarely – if at all – possible in contemporary society. It’s certainly no possible if you are disabled in the society you are in. All people in societies have dependencies on a variety of services and supports. Independent living pushes the goals of others, often one of resource management, while failing to address that contemporary society is set up with a system of dependencies to keep going. When a person has needs outside or in addition to that of the established societal structure then living “Independently” is campaigned. The goal for the person of need however is to live autonomously – with a measure of self governance and agency.

The only additional thing I would add (and I believe is inferred) is if societally constructed obstacles (& supports) were equivalent for autistic and allistic people, we would see a reduction in quality of life gap, including employment, pay, mental health outcomes and life expectancy.

Insights from the 2024 Global Workplace Report

The XYZ of Work-Related Stress: 

Commentary on Gallup 2024 State of the Global Workplace report

Hi folks,

I was reading this week’s “Nightingale” – Data Visualisation Society eNewsletter (named after Florence, Nurse-Statistician-Legend) and there was an interesting article breaking down the 2024 State of the Global Workplace report by Gallup.  The report was arguing that people’s mental well-being has deteriorated in the past ten years (I’m finally trendy! Yay!). 

However, in her article “the XYZ of Work-Related Stress”, author Shanfan Huang, makes a great point that different generations have different expectations of mental health as a priority at work.  They also have a different framework around reporting and talking about workplace mental health.  Overall, the trend could be quite good as it suggests that there could be a stronger conversation on mental health challenges and firmer boundaries.  We also need to take into account that different generations have differing priorities for a number of reasons.

It’s worth having a look at and poking around the Nightingale site, if not for tips and “horror stories” then definitely for the beautiful Information is Beautiful award that the DVS is famous for!

Have a great week
Heath

Chart explaining the top 3 stressors of Generation X, Y and Z

Design by Shanfan Huang

Resources

  1. Shanfan Huang (Dec, 2024) The XYZ of Work-Related Stress, Nightingale, Data Visualization Society
  2. Jon Clifton etal. (2024) 2024 State of the Workplace, Gallup.com
  3. David McCandless (2024) Information is Beautiful, Data Visualization Society

Navigating Burnout: Resources for Neurodivergent Individuals

2024 update

7–11 minutes

Hi folks,

Following on from the post last year[1], there have been a solid quantity of new articles on avoiding and dealing with burnout. Considering we are in the Holiday season we thought it might be worthwhile to share a select number of them with you. Please see the previous (above) post for the definition of burnout, the differences between Workplace burnout and Neurodivergent burnout, and tips for recovery*.

Dora Rainmaker and team have been key researchers into neurodivergent burnout in recent years. Their 2020 paper “Having All of Your Internal Resources Exhausted Beyond Measure and Being Left with No Clean-Up Crew: Defining Autistic Burnout.

Autism in Adulthood defined it as the result from chronic stress in life and a mismatch of expectations and abilities without the right supports, which is characterized by pervasive, long-term exhaustion …, loss of function, and a reduced tolerance to stimulus[2]

One of the main issues with burnout is that it is often coupled with depression and lowered self-worth.  Prolonged masking of ourselves is not healthy, and the downward spiral of productivity due to exhaustion will leave a person wondering their capabilities. It can be additionally difficult as neurotypical friends, family and colleagues may not understand what it is we are going through, which affects the efficacy of their support [2].

Last month Diversity Council Australia hosted a panel discussion unpacking the evidence that burnout is a inclusion issue[17]. A key concern was the compounding impact of systemic barriers, microaggressions, tokenism, or outright discrimination, experienced by marginalised people. It was highlighted that for neurodivergent employees, these factors can add additional cognitive and emotional labour, leaving them more vulnerable to exhaustion and burnout.

One of the key takeaways from the event was the need for proactive, inclusive solutions to prevent burnout. This pervasive issue is not just a personal problem but a systemic one that can be prevented by fostering more inclusive, respectful, and supportive workplaces. As organisations seek to build resilient and sustainable workforces, it’s clear that prioritising inclusion isn’t just a “nice-to-have” – it’s a necessity for the health and wellbeing of all employees[17].

In his recent Art of Autism article, ND Therapist Robert Schmus[3] does a great job of highlighting some of the key differences and additional load, separating Neurodivergent burnout from the classic workplace definition. For him it was an intense brain fog – a difficulty of linking ideas together in an extensive executive function breakdown, coupled with heightened anxiety.  When burnout is left unchecked, these symptoms build up and can lead to shut down for an extended period of time. Robert’s experience feels very familiar in my recent experience of burnout as a downward spiral.

Robert goes on to highlight some of his key drivers of burnout, including prolonged masking, trying to meet unreasonable deadlines, being in hyperfocus for long periods of time without the necessary recovery time, and having far too many urgent deadlines at one time. Unclear targets and goals, and trying to hit targets in suboptimal conditions are some of the key stumbling blocks for ND folk. A poorly set up environment can make “deep work” difficult to achieve. In order to “catchup” people report working late at night or during holidays in addition to their regular hours. This can eat into recovery and social time, and further eroding support networks.

Devon Price gave a sobering account on research into the permanent effects of late-stage burnout.  However, the recovery process is not about going back into the grind.  It is about embracing different ways of achieving your goals, and sometimes setting different goals all together[4].

So, what do we do about Burnout?

Over the past year there have been a number of high quality resources and supports from within the neurodivergent community, as well as mainstream organisations, like Arts Centre Melbourne’s Arts Wellbeing Collective, and Black Dog Institute[18]. In this post I’ll highlight resources from within the ND community.

Rachel Worsley and Kate Hardiman’s podcast “Neurowork” is a collaboration of Neurodiversity Media and Unify 360’s workplace DEI consultancy. Neurowork focuses on managing creating inclusive environments, and has a number of recent episodes focusing on avoiding overload and recovering from burnout[5]. The importance of taking short and long recovery breaks is often overlooked. It’s important to short circuit fatigue, exhaustion and burnout before it becomes entrenched, and addresses Robert Schmus’s warning about multiple competing priorities and long chains of hyperfocus.

Neurowork also advocates for the need for clear communication[6]. Understand the steps and context of the work you are undertaking is essential to achieving better results with less stress. Regular open communication is essential for solving unforeseen issues promptly as a team, and supports individual DEAI based accommodation needs. Neurodiversity Media has some great resources and advice for creating environments for neurodivergent individuals and teams to thrive at work[6].

Kristen Hovet is a medical researcher and Science communicator behind the Other Autism podcast. In her episode “Autistic Burnout, Shutdown, and Social Hangover” she points out that flexible working arrangements are a big piece in reducing overload and burnout. Working from home arrangements can be perfect for deep work, and reduce social hangover and sensory overload[13]. This tracks well with the DCA Burnout and Inclusion findings that flexible working arrangements have been proven to positively impact employee mental health[17].

Reframing Autism’s Intersectional Advisory Committee released the exceptional Welcome Pack resource[7] in March this year. It’s a 200pg guidebook that is easy to read and paired with a 30pg workbook to help getting the clarity on what needs you have by asking the questions you may not have considered. It was very much needed and filled a gap that has been talked talked about in the community for a long time.

Reframing Autism also has a large variety of other resources and training webinars including a webinar training series on Autistic Burnout Resistance and Recovery for individuals seeking to understand the topic as well as managing their own and others recover from burnout. There is also a separate training module for mental health professionals[16].

ASAN AUNZ released their Self Advocacy guide last month[8]. It’s a document to help with the communication of needs, accommodations and boundaries. They have also released an app to help with communicating support needs and listing support services. ASAN in North America has equivalent resources to help guide the process to equity[9].

And it would be remiss of me if I didn’t mention two incredible books that landed this year, Jessica McCabes “How to ADHD: An Insider’s Guide to Working with Your Brain”[10], and Ludmila Praslova’s book “the Canary Code”[11]. Both of these are game changers and both are packed with resources.

Ludmila was featured on the Ted Podcast “Fixable” by Anne Morriss and Francis Frei[14]. Fixable has become one of my favorite go-to podcasts. Apart from their exception podcast on fixing work issues Anne and Francis have published “Move Fast and Fix Things”[15] which incorporates much of the advice here at the executive, primarily the communicating and trust building aspects.

That about wraps up the updates on burnout from 2024. There is a growing acknowledgement of burnout as a serious issue, with neurodivergent people being more heavily impacted. Workplace reform, including hybrid and remote work, and clearer boundaries are beneficial for all, with a growing range of mainstream professional and individual resources being created to increase support.

If you feel that you need support please see your General Practitioner or Mental Health Professional where you can, and trusted friend or family. It’s important to be proactive about your emotional wellbeing, speaking up about mental health is a great start. If you want to start at home, then the Black Dog Institute has a self care plan[18] as starting point to manage symptoms of burnout by helping you evaluate your coping skills, identify your daily self-care needs and replace negative coping strategies with positive alternatives. 

Hope you had a wonderful Holiday season, with all the types of rest you need.  Looking forward to pushing boundaries in 2025.

Reposted from Neurodiversity and Mental Wellness Tessitura Community - Shelly Binkley & Heath Wilder

References

* When I’ve mentioned neurodivergent burnout, I’m including many neurotypes and the variety of challenges non-exhaustively. Speaking with people throughout the neurodivergent community, I’ve found a similarity of experience and overlap in management that warrants the title. There are of course more specific focus areas which are named as such. The previous post highlights burnout and fatigue with more specificity.

  1. Shelly Binkley & Heath Wilder (May, 2023) Burnout through many lenses – Neurodiversity and Mental Wellness Tessitura Community (reprinted)
  2. Dora M. Raymaker, Alan R. Teo, Nicole A. Steckler, Brandy Lentz, Mirah Scharer, Austin Delos Santos, Steven K. Kapp, Morrigan Hunter, Andee Joyce, and Christina Nicolaidis (Jun 2020) Having All of Your Internal Resources Exhausted Beyond Measure and Being Left with No Clean-Up Crew”: Defining Autistic Burnout Autism in Adulthood
  3. Robert Schmus (Aug, 2024) Autistic Burnout The Art of Autism 
  4. Dr Devon Price (Oct, 2024) You Might Not Recover from Burnout. Ever. What grows from the ashes of your old life? Dr Devon Price Substack
  5. Rachel Worsley & Kate Hardiman (Dec, 2024) What are your recommendations for managing energy levels and burnout in teams/environments that demand high performance? Neurodiversity Media and Unify360
  6. Rachel Worsley & Kate Hardiman (Dec, 2024) How to Fix Neurodivergent Burnout At This Time of Year Neurodiversity Media and Unify360
  7. Intersectional Advisory Committee (IAC) (Mar, 2024) Welcome Pack Reframing Autism
  8. (Nov, 2024) ASAN Self Advocacy Toolkit ASAN AUNZ
  9. (Dec, 2024) Autistic Advocacy Resources AutisticAdvocacy.org
  10. Jessica McCabe (Jul 2024) How to ADHD: An Insider’s Guide to Working with Your Brain howtoadhdbook.com
  11. Ludmila Praslova (Oct, 2024) the Canary Code the.canarycode.com
  12. Shelly Binkley & Heath Wilder (Dec, 2023) 7 Types of Rest Neurodiversity and Mental Wellness Tessitura Community
  13. Kristen Hovet (Aug, 2024) Autistic Burnout, Shutdown, and Social Hangover – The Other Autism
  14. Francis Frei & Anne Morriss (Nov, 2024) The power of neurodivergence in the workplace (w/ Master Fixer Ludmila Praslova) – Fixable
  15. Francis Frei & Anne Morriss (Oct, 2023) Move Fast and Fix Things – Harvard Business Review
  16. Autistic Burnout – Resistance and Recovery Community Webinar – Professional Webinar (2024) Reframing Autism
  17. Why Burnout Is an Inclusion Issue (Nov, 2024) Diversity Council Australia
  18. How to use self-care planning to improve your emotional wellbeing, even when you don’t think you need it (May 2023) Black Dog Institute

O, she doth teach the torches to burn bright!

WS, R&J

Parsley novels rosemary and thyme

Tonight I am sitting down on a cold winter’s night to a meal of mashed potato and peas, Toulouse sausage – an inspiration of from Craig my local butcher, as he’s getting festive for the Paris Olympics. The fresh parsley, lemon thyme, spring onion, and rosemary are out of my balcony garden.

I’ve taken 2 days off work in recovery as I’ve kept blacking out. My local GP thinks it’s probably exhaustion, and she’s probably right. I went for a mental health care assessment to help with the government subsidy which is kind of a new Australian tradition prior to psychology. It’s a little inane as you have to spend $150 at the GP for an allowance copayment of about the same for psychology and typical bureaucracy nevertheless. Nevertheless I have found a good GP which can be is rare as finding a good mechanic. Being off work

Being off work meant that I got to catch up on, you guessed it, more work. My Data Analyst wrote a fantastic service level agreement SLA, and in the interest of mental health, and controlling the chaos, I need to write a introduction to onboard the company to this practise. It’s not that their resistant, more that it’s new. This is especially true in the arts where none of us, or most of us, are doing work very tangential to what we have studied. Lots of people have expressed interest in our use of Jira to manage the incoming, and the new SLA for clarity on deliverables. That’s a lot of business words but don’t get me wrong this is purely for protection and sanity. I’ll save you the spiel about saving the arts through project management for another time.

Parallel to that work is the Advocacy Group for Arts workers that I manage with my friend Shelly. Some of the mental health advocacy I’ve posted here has been born directly in the work in that space. This started as another bit of mental health safety around providing support to neurodivergent and autistic individuals in arts administration, but quickly became one of the central pillars of my life. 

Over the last 12 months Shelly and I have expanded our little group to include activities like a book club, movie watch party, and other mental health activities like weekly meditation. This month for book club we’ve decided on the fiction book tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow by Gabriel Zevin. Extraordinarily this book is a non-romantic love story between two autistic young adults, and by young I mean a flashback to teenage years but it’s predominantly set in college and beyond. I am 10% into the book already and have a sometimes overwhelming love-hate relationship with it already. Like watching your favourite sports team lose at the grand final the early trials of the protagonists have me in outrage damming the characters foiling their lives to hell. I hate this book, and as love and hate are close parallels I’m reticent to say the truth that I am hooked.

So that’s where I am at present. Walking a fine line but enjoying that moment.

Lemon Thyme

Ocean wind

Google drive just snuck this photo of mine past my feed. For an algorithm it’s darkly humorous, having recently lost a close friend. On the other side is the cold pacific ocean beating on these cyclopean blocks.

I used to come here a lot between the 90s and 2015. This picture however was one of the last and it feels a lot like that time;

wind harsh and sharp,
the colours unambiguous,
the sea more solid than cement;

so wild and solitary;

and so eternal,
in contrast with the rest of us.

Neuroinclusive Education

I was speaking with my bestie, their 3yo is pulling out of dance class because they are finding it hard (the 3yo not … you get it). It’s not having your parent there, as much as being told what to do by people you don’t know, in ways you struggle to understand, and with little adjustment or accommodation.

See our protagonist is undoubtedly neurodivergent, and being neurodivergent is frequently tricky, because whilst you are growing up you are learning in mixed groups, with a curriculum delivered in a way to have the best results – or to achieve the best learning amongst the most students. When you have specific needs and make up 2% of the population, it’s on you to do the extra work. When you succeed in creating an adaptation of the system, that creativity is not valued, celebrated or even noticed. Often that’s because the trainer does not understand that you needed it, or may look at it as procrastination. What is celebrated is the end result of your efforts, and in your case the effort was split between creating a new system you could work with, before you moved onto the standard learning. Consequently when you realise that the standard measuring system doesn’t measure you you stop caring in the measuring. So being a neurodivergent kid is tricky. Tricky to the point of overwhelming; emotionally, intellectually and physically. Or at least that has been my experience.

To the first point I hated being without my parent. Usually my mum but back then my dad and I were close. It was bringing something/one you knew you could predict and was an an option if you needed to get you out of that situation. That sounds cold, I truly loved my parents regardless of the difficulties, and perhaps because of them. But in those early decades, I found going it alone very hard. You learn little-by-little your own capabilities, but having that base of familiarity is exceptionally important as an autistic kid. I’d never complain, which was apparently a feature. I could get very quiet and focussed or very still. Inside I was vibrating at hyper-speed like the flash travelling through a wall. Some of my earliest memories are of negotiating my own executive dysfunction, making up rituals where “by the end of folding this leaf I would go and see if I could join in playing soccer”.

It’s especially hard in those early years when you are starting to encounter the neurotypical world. None of it make sense. I felt that I was in a daily escape room – having to navigate situations where at any time someone would change from happy to see me to outraged that I’d transgressed some rule. And it only became apparent that I’d transgressed a rule later on. Initially it seemed random, and the emotion and whatever I did was unrelated. I started learning about social rules from then on, and interpreting what people were saying into understanding what they wanted. Now <cough cough> years on I’ve come a few laps in the understanding that often the response is random, and is a complex web of other peoples stuff that may intersect with what I am doing and what they are saying in small or large ways. But to a 3yo doing ballet that is way outside what you’ve signed up for.

So what is the way to teach neurodivergent kids dance? We’ve rallied and campaigned against Applied Behaviour Analysis, forcing the normalisation of children, and imposing a dog training reward model. We also know that “one size fits all” fit the majority not a minority. I’m certainly not an expert, but I do know people who are.

It strikes me that I know internationally renowned leaders in dance and dance education, trained in neurodivergent accommodation and neurodivergent themselves. And what they teach seems radically human centered from a place of growth and safety. They teach from a place of support and the tools to support yourself. And that component of the training is egalitarian and largely unmeasured. Because what are you measuring and why?

Seems like a good place to start.